Wednesday, October 31, 2012

American Deer Hunters: An Effective Fighting Force?

The debate on whether all the deer hunters in this country would make an unbeatable guerrilla fighting force continues.

If you're late to the party, as I am, here's a recap:

The debate started with Oleg Volk's post, The Mis-Directed Fetish of Marksmanship in which he questions their ability to fight against a well trained regular fighting force and be effective.

American Mercenary responded in his post, Marksmanship Matters, in which he argues that
"marksmanship is not a misdirected fetish unless it becomes separated from the rest of the necessities of political freedom...(marksmanship is) not worthless when taken part and parcel of a larger set of activities."

As a result of comments on that post, AM has written another response, 20 Million Deer hunters, guardians of freedom?
A lot of people who believe that 20 million deer hunters are a credible threat to tyranny seem to have the "Underpants Gnome" plan for success.

Step 1. 20 Million Deer Hunters!
Step 2. ?
Step 3. Victory!
What this conversation really boils down to is how you get from step one to step three.  Expecting 20 million people to self organize into anything is, in my opinion, expecting a miracle.
Read the rest here and make up your own mind. Lots of food for thought.

My 2¢:

Step 2 would be to fight smart.

In a guerrilla war, you usually have the luxury of choosing the time and place to carry out your operation. You don't carry one out unless you have a very high chance of success without getting caught. Be like ghosts. Hit and run. Demoralize them. Keep them wondering. Wear them down.

Don't go toe-to-toe with a conventional force. That's suicide. Go for soft targets. Sabotage. Disruptions. Etc...

I'm guessing that 90%+ of the action will occur in urban environments, not in rural fly-over country. Learn from the Battle of Grozny. Get your range cards made (you should have them already) for your AO.

But don't forget, you need support. You're going to need an organized auxiliary for anything long term.

This is stuff that's all been written about before on various blogs. Stop thinking it can't be done. It can.
We can win. We just have to be smart about it. 

Plan. Prepare. Persevere. And PT.


  1. The key to turning the millions of American deer hunters into an effective fighting force is to get them to practice marksmanship, and to form into fire teams, squads, and hopefully platoons but let's get them to act and shoot as a team. The rest will follow.

  2. Ever watched a group of rabbit hunters work a patch of briars. It doesn't take a platoon if you know your AO.

  3. Think about how the DC Snipers were able to terrorize the country for 3 weeks. Imagine a dozen or more 'Deer Hunters' using similar methods all across the country to take out legitimate targets. No fire teams, no squads, no platoons. Just a driver and a shooter.

  4. Guerrillas don't always get to choose when to strike. The regulars and government enforcement organization are going to be conducting searches, arrests and try to reduce the resister's ability to wage war. So waiting for a good opportunity isn't always possible -- the chance of getting swept up in a dragnet in the meantime is too great.

    1. "Guerrillas don't always get to choose when to strike."

      Correct. But many times they do get to choose when and where to strike. The regulars and govt enforcers cannot be everywhere all the time. Guerrillas don't have to be toting a rifle either. Sabotage is a very effective tool and doesn't always have to result in something blowing up.

      I think people are over-thinking this in some areas, and under-thinking it in others.

      I love your photos by the way.

    2. I couldn't care less if I'm going to be the ONLY one with a rifle fighting for Freedom, I'll find others.

      I got something I'm working on that will address this fully.

  5. A guerrilla that has not yet acted as a guerrilla and is not know has the best opportunity for a successful first strike. Our names and probably faces are pretty much known to everyone who gives a shit. But someone who is unknown and just plays the game all the way until the minute they strike could drop a heavy hammer on an unsuspecting target. A fictional example from an alien planet- Blern of the zoidberg people works a checkpoint every day for 2 years. One day he pulls up to work, pulls a ray gun out of his lunchbox and cleans house, fading into the hills after.
    Look at the massively demoralizing effect action like this had on coalition troops in Afghanistan. Joint operations were shut down after less than 100 fatalities this way.

  6. A guerrilla who doesn't choose when and where to srike is what traditional doctrine calls a "dumbass", and what Air Force Tactical Command calls a "target package".
    If things are too hot for a guerrilla or two to cross town with a rifle in the trunk, when and were will the 127th Guerrilla Bn find the opportunity to train? Tierra del Fuego? To be dropped in by suborbital space launch??

    If Police State sets up random checkpoints and house-to-house sweeps, *those ARE the targets*, not the obstacles in getting to them. Now you're back to being the partisan, and they're back to being your source of supply.

    "But we can't kill tanks!"
    Really? You don't have bottles and gasoline? You don't have rubble and wire? Their crews don't get out to pee?

    Fight smart indeed.


  7. Speaking as a former US Tanker, and in relation to gasoline. The view-ports on our tanks were never waterproof... during ftx in the rain we always had fluid coming in... And there are (for "good" driving" only two view-ports that are usable for effective driving, the drivers hatch ( front lower level, usually mostly covered by the turret, and the commanders view ports behind the .50 I saw a nifty little post earlier today about paint and water balloons... perhaps with the added assistance of a pneumatic spud-gun.

    1. Odd to imagine the time and the place where a paintball gun would have more situational value than a Barrett Fifty.

  8. Please understand AMs posts are disinformational propaganda. The fact that he has done eveything he could to missinform, demoralize and propagandize the FREE-FOR should tell you that. AM is a PSYWAR Agiprop blog ment to draw out patriot radicals. That and its funny as hell. The arrogence and Hubris of the AM blog has no equal.

    1. Exactly. Why does an officer with little kids and a wife back home spend so much time writing a blog "for us". I fly in here and run my mouth for a few minutes, this guy posts what amount to hours of research and prep damn near daily. I don't think he's doing the JK Rowling and writing notes on spare MRE toliet paper, either.

      His job is to post, to gain trust and legitamacy, to mis-inform.

  9. Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by laziness.
    The military has never lacked burn-outs, even when they weren't deploying for combat every 2 years.
    I think AM just needs to recharge his batteries for a presidential term or two.


  10. Aesop, you wrote, If Police State sets up random checkpoints and house-to-house sweeps, *those ARE the targets*, not the obstacles in getting to them. Now you're back to being the partisan, and they're back to being your source of supply.

    How are the patriots going to know how to mass on a random checkpoint, or random house to house sweep without some basic level of organization? Or are they going to keep their rifles handy at all times, just in case they come across a random checkpoint or sweep?

    Fundamentally your argument is that "things will just happen because people will just start doing stuff" and that it is inevitable that they will happen in a manner that works out for the FreeFor. I disagree.

  11. AM,

    Disagreement is healthy.

    I'm not trying to squeeze everything through the Army Operations FM Playdoh Mold and make it squirt out a 5 Paragraph Order.

    If *I* see a random checkpoint, I'm going to find a place from which to shoot at it. Covered, concealed, yadda, yadda. The only "mass" involved will be the one for the guy I hit, or me if I miss. Either way, I'm displacing immediately and going back about my business.

    Every notch after the first one is gravy. There are, as elsewhere discussed, only about 4M of them. There are 296M of us. If I have to do it all by myself, I'll probably never live the 12,000+ years I'll need, at 1@day. But if 12,000 of us come out to play, next Christmas the badguys'll be gone. If 1M of us participate, we can knock off before lunch next Tuesday. Either way, life and liberty for the other 290M will be vastly better once they're gone.

    Fundamentally, my argument is that they'll run out of thugs for checkpoints (or anything else) looooong
    before we run out of bullets. Secondarily, my argument is that either the senior military, if not the government, will rapidly conclude that it's in their best interests to reverse course rather than ride the missile all the way to impact with the ground.

    And yes, as time passes, organizing might be helpful. Depends. If I get the 1M turnout, I doubt you can whip many men into shape in 5 days. And if only 20 guys come out to play, I think we're better off attacking 20 seperate targets than having 10 of us attacking 2, or 20 of us attacking 1.

    I've never had any quarrel with organization at some point. I just think the problem is timing. You want to build a World series team; I just want to see how many kids will show up for a pickup game on the corner lot.

    It's also no small matter that under my starting point, I don't have to pull a base camp and Bn-level S1/S2/S3/S4/S5 shop, and rations to feed them and the 500 men I don't have, out of my back end. If I had the means to raise a regiment, I'd probably just have spent it on buying a senator instead, obviating this problem 20 years ago.

    Best Regards,

  12. Hey, heres an idea!
    Why dont we try it both ways and see which way is more productive?
    Then we will at least be doing something other than just growling at each other like little bitches.


  13. Because time, resources, and personnel are in short supply. If you could find 500 guys who'd absolutely show up for training one weekend a month and 2 weeks every summer, in only 10 years you be at the level of an under-equipped mediocre National Guard Battalion.

    But you don't have 500 guys, you probably don't have 10 years, and 99.9% of America doesn't have any sense of urgency about needing to organize anyone.

    I'd like the Enterprise and crew (ideally the starship, but I'd settle for the carrier) but neither wish is any likelier than flying into battle of unicorns and weilding lightsabers.

    The rule is always:
    Pick Any Two.

    We don't have resources, so it's going to be cheap.
    We probably don't have time, so it's going to be fast.
    Therefore, it's not going to be good.